Knowing your rights and staying prepared for wildfires

S1: It’s time for Midday Edition on KPBS. For today’s show , we’re talking about how to handle the many situations wildfires cause. I’m Jade Hyndman with conversations that keep you informed , inspired , and make you think.

S2: Or at the very least , had time to review and digest.

S1: Plus , how to help neighbors who have dementia during a wildfire. Then the story of incarcerated firefighters. That’s ahead on midday Edition. Nearly half of San Diegans are renters. And with the constant threat of wildfires , it’s important to know your rights as a renter. But navigating those legal processes during and after wildfires can be complicated. Joining us to help make sense of it , though , is Gilberto Vera. He is deputy attorney and director with Legal Aid Society of San Diego. Gilberto , welcome to Midday Edition.

S2: Thank you for having me today , Jade.

S1: Well , I’m glad to have you here. Thanks for taking the time. Okay , so let’s say a renter is affected by a fire.

S2: So , you know , after the fire , one of the first things you want to do is obviously communicate with your landlord. If you’ve been displaced by as a result of an evacuation order. Um , and then , you know , assuming the threat has subsided , you know , before going back into the home , you know , making sure it’s structurally sound. And that could be either by contacting code enforcement or maybe the fire department might have what’s known as a red tag , which is a tag that’s placed on buildings when they are not safe for anyone to occupy. So I think that’s one really important first step. The other would be , obviously if you have renter’s insurance , make make , you know , contact your insurance carrier and file a claim immediately because not only would that claim likely be able to help you cover any personal damage to your property , but more importantly , and fulfill the most necessary and immediate need which has helped you provide for alternative housing.

S1:

S2: And if that happens , if the damage is to the unit are partial , but enough that it doesn’t make the property habitable. And that could be for a couple of reasons. Maybe like the fire partially destroyed , like a bathroom or a kitchen. And so you don’t have bathroom facilities or cooking facilities that might make the property uninhabitable. So if the property is uninhabitable , then the landlord has the responsibility of providing alternative housing , and the tenant would have the responsibility of continuing to pay whatever their rental obligation is.

S1:

S2: I think if if your property has been partially damaged and your landlord is refusing to provide you alternative housing , that would be one first step to contact an attorney. Or if your landlord is saying , you know , things like , you know , you know what , I think you should leave because I need to make repairs and it’s going to take time. If there’s like some sort of narrative about you just leaving and the contract being terminated , even though the property itself has not been completely destroyed. To me , that that signals it’s a red flag that the landlord might be trying to wrongfully evict you. Because the only way a landlord can evict you is with a proper written notice , not any sort of verbal or oral comments that are made to a tenant to leave.

S1: Now , earlier you mentioned renter’s insurance. What kind of security does that provide someone in these situations ? Yeah.

S2: So it provides a the immediate security of being able to provide alternative housing. And it kind of eliminates like the issue you might have with the landlord who refuses. Right. Because like I mentioned , if a lender refuses to provide the alternative housing , sure. Like that violates your rights and you get a right to sue them , but that might take months , if not years. Your immediate need is housing. So that’s where your renter insurance kicks in , because it can provide you immediate , um , housing that is paid by your interest insurance. Also , what that does is let’s say you have a landlord that is still trying to abide by the law. If you’re temporarily displaced and you are paying for your own alternative housing , you or your insurance carrier. It relieves your responsibility to pay the landlord any rent , so it could also save you money and having to pay the landlord rent because your insurance is paying for your own housing. And then lastly , obviously you can cover your personal property damage. So even though a landlord is responsible for providing you alternative housing , they might not necessarily be liable for the damage to your personal property if they didn’t do anything that was , you know , unreasonable in the context of like failing to maintain the property , um , or that they didn’t have any sort of negligence that that might have exacerbated the damages to the property. For example , let’s say that there was a lot of vegetation around the property , and that was a contributing factor as to why this particular property burned down. There might be some liability there on behalf of the landlord.

S1: So is there anything someone can do ahead of a fire to protect themselves ? Yeah.

S2: So , you know , one really important thing is renter’s insurance , as you notice , because it can really help fulfill like really immediate needs and protect you beyond what landlord tenant law might protect you. Um , renters insurance policies , you know , around $15 a month. Um , and they not only cover , um , situations where you have natural disasters , but it might be some of them cover like break ins , or maybe there is like a pipe that bursts in the property and there’s some damage to your personal belongings. So renter’s insurance is something that I , I recommend to tenants to have , you know , it’s not that expensive and it’s better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it.

S1: Okay , so what about section eight ? How should renters with section eight vouchers navigate wildfire risk ? Yeah.

S2: So there are situations a little unique in that. You know , in addition to kind of everything we’ve talked about for tenants who don’t have a section eight voucher , one important thing they have to do is contact their local housing authority. All section eight vouchers , although it’s a federal program that are administered locally , um , and based on where you live locally in the city , the county of San Diego. We have six jurisdictions. The City of San Diego , National City , Oceanside , Carlsbad , Encinitas , and then the rest of the county is covered by the county of San Diego. So depending on where you live , you will contact your local housing authority. Generally , you’re assigned a case manager when you have a voucher , so you contact your case manager to let them know that the property that you’ve been displaced as a result of the fire , because if the place is not habitable , the section eight program will not be paying rent to the landlord until those repairs are made.

S1:

S2: Or are situations where the landlord is saying , you know , if you sign this paper , I’ll return your security deposit and you can leave immediately. You know , that may or may not benefit benefit you , but that type of offer from a landlord is usually not out of the kindness of their heart and not made to benefit the tenant. So always be really mindful if the landlord is trying to get you to sign any document , because you might be unknowingly waiving very important rights. Um , and also situations where , let’s say you’ve returned , the property’s been damaged , you come back and the locks have been changed. That is what we refer to as a constructive self-help eviction. And not only would the landlord potentially be liable for similar damages to the tenant. It is also actually a criminal misdemeanor. So you can report those illegal lockouts to the police. The local police department recommended to do that on the non-emergency phone line. Okay.

S1: Okay. So say a landlord does toss a bunch of papers in front of your face to sign.

S2: We can also submit requests for assistance. Additionally , you can also try to reach out to your own attorney if you have someone you generally work with , but definitely don’t sign anything unless you’ve been able to consult with an attorney. Or at the very least had time to review and digest. Don’t. Don’t feel like you have to sign anything immediately without having be able to review it and digest , and ideally talk to an attorney.

S1: In the aftermath of the Los Angeles wildfires , you know , we’re seeing some reports of landlords engaging in price gouging. For those who don’t know , can you explain what that is and how bad it’s gotten ? Yeah.

S2: So , um , you’re referring to Penal Code 394 , which is an anti gouging statute. And it’s actually , you know , it’s a it’s a violation of our of a criminal law , not just the civil law. Um , but what happens is when there’s a fire and there’s a local declaration of emergency , that’s what triggers this penal code 394 , which caps any rent increases or increases on the rental housing of no more than 10% of what it was in effect before the local emergency. That penal code also triggers not just housing , but like goods and services. Essentially , the idea behind it is we don’t want people to benefit from from a natural disaster because there’s a imbalance temporarily in supply and demand as a result of this natural disaster. Um , and I know I’ve been hearing in , in Los Angeles County , like rents or even and it doesn’t just apply to like your typical landlord tenant situation. It can apply to hotels , Airbnbs , people selling property. It’s it’s anything where you’re you’re offering housing and you’re increasing in more than 10% than it was. And so we’re seeing a lot of that happen in Los Angeles , not just in rents , but in what people are listening , the the , you know , homes for sale as well. And that that can also , like I mentioned , it’s not something it’s something that you can be arrested for and charged for. Um , and I know that this happened during the pandemic because this same penal code was triggered , you know , throughout the nation , but throughout our state. And the attorney General’s Office of California was prosecuting people who violated this penal code. Okay.

S1: Okay. Like , how much more are they raising these rents.

S2: In Los Angeles County ? Yeah.

S1: Like right now.

S2: I’ve I’ve been hearing reports of 20% , 30% , you know , essentially. And it’s not just increases of rent on existing tenancies. It’s for vacant units. So like let’s say I had an apartment for that. I was listing in , you know , in the city in , in Pasadena that was not impacted. But I was listening for rent for $3,000 before the fires and then afterwards I’m renting it for , you know , I see that there’s a demand for housing and I decide to increase it 30%. And so that’s also where where sometimes people think that it only applies to like , existing tenancies , but it applies to anyone who’s offering housing for for rent or sale. Um , and so it protects not just tenants , but potential homeowners , um , as well.

S1: Well , before I let you go , are there any other rights tenants have , uh , that they need to be aware of ? Yeah.

S2: Um , so let’s talk about situations where the units been. The property’s been completely destroyed. Either all that’s left is a foundation or a structurally unsound building. Um , in those situations , uh , by operation of law , the contract between the landlord tenant is terminated. Meaning , you know , even if you’re in the middle , even if you’re like , lease , you know , month two of a 12 month lease , it would be terminated. And that’s because the purpose of the contract no longer exists , which is the rental property. And in those situations where the contract’s automatically terminated. Right. The landlord’s relieved of their responsibility of providing you housing and you as a tenant to relieve the responsibility of paying rent through the remainder of the lease term. The tenant should also be also be entitled to the return of their security deposit. By law. Your security deposit has to be returned within 21 days of the tenancy being terminated , and the landlord would , in that scenario , would not be able to withhold any of the security deposit for damages caused by the fire or any cleaning damage. You know , things like that related to the fire. Um , they might be able to withhold your security deposit , like let’s say you had an unpaid balance of rent or other fees. They would that are separate from the fire. They would be able to do that , but they can’t charge you for damages related that that were caused by the fire. Um , so that’s one important thing to to know. Um , in those situations , you know , it’s not something you might immediately think of , but , um , but it’s important to know where you might stand in relation to your obligation of paying rent , but also the right to get your security deposit back.

S1:

S2: Because they might have their own insurance that covers things like this. So I guess if you’re a landlord who’s renting property , like , you know , we’ve been talking a lot about what , what , what rights tenants have , but as and what tenants can do to prepare. But what you can do to prepare as a landlord is you can carry your own insurance carrier , your own policies to help you , to help you weather through this storm as well as the tenants. So you can have rental insurance policies that could cover the damage to the property. There are other policies that might help that might help cover the loss of revenue from the rent. So there are things that landlords can do as well in advance to prepare for , for these types of , of potential fires , especially if you own or rent property in what we’ve been referred to as like the fire zone , which are kind of the more eastern areas of our county , um , where , you know , historically we’ve had fires. It’s important in those areas for renters and landlords to carry to be ensured of these types of of of disasters.

S1: I’ve been speaking with Gilberto Vera. He is deputy attorney and director with Legal Aid Society of San Diego. Lots of valuable information. Thank you so much for joining us , Gilberto.

S2: Thank you , Jade , for helping me amplify this very important message.

S1: Coming up , the best way a caregiver can help someone with dementia during a wildfire. The goal is to.

S3: Keep the person calm , relaxed. Communicate. If a routine has to be changed. You can also have a comfort item for that individual , whether or not it’s their purse , whether or not it’s a fidget toy.

S1: KPBS Midday Edition is back after the break. Welcome back to Midday Edition , I’m Jade Hindman. As flames broke out across San Diego County last month , some neighborhoods were under evacuation orders. Evacuating your home can be a scary situation for anyone , but for people with cognitive disorders like dementia and Alzheimer’s disease , there are extra challenges. Kaiser psychiatrist Sara Simmons says an emergency can worsen dementia symptoms.

S4: You put them in a place like a shelter where there’s chaos , there’s noise , there’s lights. It can really throw a person with dementia off and create that agitation or that anxiety or that feeling of overwhelm.

S1: Well , joining me to discuss this is Brooke Martindale. She runs a home health care company called Cheer Home Care. Brooke , welcome to Midday Edition.

S3: Thank you very much. It’s a pleasure to be here.

S1: Well , it’s so glad to have you here with us. Um , so , listen , creating an action plan ahead of time can really help with wildfire preparedness.

S3: But when you’re able to plan ahead , it is a lot of people think my mom will be okay. My caregiver is there. But that’s not necessarily the case because caregivers have their own families sometimes even during the last. The wildfire recently in San Diego , our kids were called in. We were called to come and pick them up. And if my husband wasn’t free , then I would have had to go. Um , and clearly , you know , not to mention we’re in the middle of a sandwich generation where a lot of the times the children are taking care of their own children and their parents , and it can make things really complicated. Yeah.

S1: Yeah. So what does a proper go back for someone with a cognitive disorder like dementia or Alzheimer’s or look like.

S3: That’s a great question. And actually , it’s very important to have a sealed container or a plastic bag to put a lot of the items in. Um , because again , if there’s flooding fire , it helps protect them. Um , you want to have your personal medical history. You want to have medications , um , names and the dosages. You want to have the doctor’s information , any legal documents , power of attorney , health care proxy. Because if the individual has cognitive impairment , they may not be able to answer those questions on their own. Um , it’s also important to have a copy of your Social Security card. Any legal documentation ? I also tell people that are with the individuals to have a picture of them , because if they wander , you want to be able to have a recent picture of the individual as well as the picture in the bag , because the person may not know that the bag is actually theirs. If you go to a shelter. Um , any medical supplies outfits , outfits are important and you want to think of , um , packing in layers. Because especially if someone goes to a shelter , the temperatures can be different. And when it’s really hot or really cold. Someone who’s already cognitively impaired that can impact and create more stress for them. So you want to be able. It’s an easy outfit to take on and off or a layer to take on and off. Velcro shoes are sometimes helpful when you’re in a rush. Um , eyeglasses. Because contacts. You might not be able to have free hands if the person wears contacts if they have an extra pair of glasses. Also , if they have a hearing aid , you have extra batteries or support in order to enable this , because if someone’s already anxious and nervous to be where they are , if they can’t see correctly or they can’t hear correctly , um , it’s only going to cause more agitation. And our goal is to keep the person as calm as humanly possible. You also want to make sure that you have any continence products , that that individual may need an ID bracelet or any kind of security device. Um , and also sometimes it’s important to put labels and names in clothing as well. So you have the ID bracelet when you go. You also want to make sure you have that number of the ID bracelet or the wandering company. People don’t think about that , but that’s something else that’s important to have in the bag , because if the person 60% of people with Alzheimer’s and dementia can eventually wander , so if they’re at a shelter , they don’t know where they are , the person watching them goes to the bathroom and then they’re scared and alone. You want to make sure that you have that clearly water , non-perishable food. And then sometimes it’s helpful to have organizations like the Alzheimer’s Association. They have an 800 number that’s wonderful , available 24 over seven in case you need guidance or the Red cross or another organization’s phone number. Yeah.

S1: Yeah. I mean , you know , anytime there’s an emergency , I mean , it can be really disruptive to one’s routine. And routine is so important for people with dementia or Alzheimer’s.

S3: So I mean , it’s hard when a routine is people go with routine. I think the goal is to keep the person calm , relaxed. Communicate. Um. If a routine has to be changed , you can also have a comfort item for that individual , whether or not it’s their purse , whether or not it’s a fidget toy , whether or not it’s just a picture of a family picture , what is going to help bring that person or make them calm when a routine is getting changed ? Also , if you happen to be taking someone from where they are in a vehicle or in another location , can you put on music that maybe from their time and their generation when growing up , music. Something that’s known to provide a lot of comfort to an individual who’s experiencing Alzheimer’s and dementia and kind of helps them go through a routine that they might not otherwise want to go through.

S1:

S3: A lot of people start to speak to them as if they’re a child. That’s the last thing you want to do , but you do want to keep your messages short and simple. So if you’re a neighbor and it was suddenly there were wildfires and you wanted to go help the person , you don’t want to come in and say , well , you know , the wildfires that were in LA , they’re here now. And go into a long , convoluted explanation. Instead , you want to say something like , your daughter just gave me a call. She’d love you to me to take you to her. Let’s grab her to go back and let’s get in the car or. Or we’re all going to use the bathroom before we go. One thing you don’t want to do is ask the person questions , because that makes things much more difficult. You want to keep the message very , very simple , short , concise. You want to make sure to make eye contact with the person , um , and just validate their feelings and not contradict them.

S1: And asking a lot of questions that can be agitating , right ? Correct.

S3: So not asking questions , you just want to keep it very short , simple and direct statements of what you need , not giving the person. Would you like to use the ladies room ? You just want to say we’re all going to use the ladies room. So it’s just a fact. It’s something that’s going to happen as you’re walking them out the door , or we’re all going to grab our bag. Um , we’re all going to make sure we have our medications in case we don’t have them for the next few days. Mm.

S1: Mm. That’s a good idea there.

S3: We panic. And I think it’s really important that we take some deep breaths before we speak to someone who has cognitive impairment , because they can sense something’s different. And how we speak gets communicated , and it gets that sense of anxiety will they’ll feel it and they’ll know it. So we want to pause , as I said , also , we want to make sure that we talk to them as the dignified individual that they are. We don’t want to talk to them as children. Um , and again , just keep it short , simple and and reassuring.

S1: Well , more than 60% of people with dementia will wander.

S3: We all think about these wandering devices as if they’re these big , ugly , clunky or my mom won’t wear it. There’s really nice looking ones that she won’t even know what it is necessarily , if it’s not necessary. Um , you can also put tags in someone’s clothing. It’s also important to recognize that when they do wander , they stay usually within a half mile of their houses where they’re found. So check all pasts , just not the common spot because they may. They’re most likely closer than you can. The police often say again during a crisis , calling 911 isn’t going to help you. But even in general , if they do wander in your home or near your home in a non-emergency situation that you kind of want to look for ten 15 minutes on your own and then call the police. Clearly , if there’s extenuating circumstances , it’s below freezing temperatures or , you know , a heat wave , we you would want to step in quickly and differently. But that’s usually the general guidance.

S1: Well , earlier you mentioned music as a way to sort of calm a person who has dementia.

S3: Again , as I mentioned , the comfort items. Um , you want to make sure that you also attend to their physical needs during crisis instead of their emotional needs , because often one is causing the other. If you attend to their physical needs , they’re too hot , they’re too cold , they’re thirsty. If you don’t kind of constantly remind them to give them water , those types of things will then cause emotional reactions that you don’t understand where they’re coming from. So that’s one other way to kind of help make the situation and help them keep them calm during a situation. Um , another thing that’s important is when you’re in one of these situations is to tell the people around you , you can’t do it yourself. So if you’re in a shelter , if you’re in a hotel because you’re staying in another location. You want to make sure that you share their diagnosis with people so that people can help you. And they’ll assist , you know , they’ll notice someone walking out the door that shouldn’t be walking out the door. If you’ve told them , they’ll notice. Maybe they’ll put a different color armband on someone or something so that it can be a team effort , because it can be very stressful and isolating for the individual caregiver as well.

S1:

S3: You have to make sure that you’re thinking of yourself. You have to make sure that if you’re on medications , you’re packing those medications , you’re packing your own clothes , you’re doing the types of things that you need and that you’re asking for help. No one can do this alone. Um , engaging. That’s why the Alzheimer’s Association has an event called The Longest Day. Caring for a loved one with Alzheimer’s and dementia. It is. Your day never ends. You’re always needed , and you’re always on guard. Not just for yourself , but you’re watching out for another person. So as much as you can humanly , you know , help ask for people. If you have a loved one who has dementia , you don’t live near them. Ask your neighbors. People want to help , but they don’t know how to help. So if your loved one has a , um , you know , uh , they’re bedridden. We heard about the fires in LA , and it was really upsetting. A lot of people had. There were at least two situations where individuals had loved ones who they couldn’t get out of the bed because they weren’t strong enough or because of their condition. You want to if there’s a neighbors around that are strong , say , if something goes wrong , can you get my mom ? Can you help me carry my mom from the bed to the car ? Make sure that you ask. People want to know how to help , but they don’t know how to help. So educate them and the messages. Ask them. I live five miles from my parent’s house. I think if something goes wrong , I can get them. But we learned just from last week it took my husband 40 minutes to get less than a mile to our home after picking up his children. That that mother or , you know , 50 year old woman , if she has children , if she’s taking her children somewhere , she at the same time can’t be growing towards the fires to pick up her parents. She needs to be getting her children away. So there needs to be a communication and things. The most important thing is to plan ahead , to check , to check the weather , to plan ahead , to make sure you have a strategy and a plan. Because going towards where there’s an emergency isn’t going to help anyone. You need to keep those lanes free for emergency paramedics , the fire department and then decide meet up places , decide strategies and plans and how you can be of assistance. And for anyone who has neighbors who are cognitively impaired , just ask. People are so afraid of asking for help , and there’s so much pride in the work that they do. And there’s loneliness and isolation , so it’s easy to say , hey , I was thinking the other day about the fires that were happening. I realized , you don’t live closely or I see your mom around , you know , is there anything that I can ever do to help ? Um , because you don’t recognize the difference that you could be making in that person’s day just to notice that someone cares about them and the person that they love.

S1: That is a very great point.

S3: If you go to the Alzheimer’s Association ALS. Org. They have lists of community support groups. Cheer Home Care actually has one in our office. We run another one at the V. There are many , many wonderful support groups. We also have a cognitive brain health class , um , for um , so the first the Alzheimer’s support groups are for the individuals caring for someone. But then there’s also support groups for people who are recently diagnosed , and they can go and do activities that are researched to help keep the brain sharp. You also can check the Alzheimer’s Association. There’s so many studies and programs that people can now become a part of. There’s soon to be an incredible blood tests that I think they’re saying. Probably has about 97% accuracy. So there’s so much treatment and research and things that are going on , and they can’t get enough people to be involved in the studies right now. So if you know of someone with Alzheimer’s , um , I’d say go on the Alzheimer’s website , see if there’s a study that you can enroll your loved one in. Um , and don’t be afraid to ask for help because people really want to help out there.

S1: You can find those resources and more at KPBS. I’ve been speaking with Brooke Martindale. She runs a home health care company called Cheer Home Care. Brooke , thanks for joining us today.

S3: My pleasure. Thank you for caring.

S1: Coming up , we’ll break down the complicated role incarcerated firefighters play during wildfires.

S5: Deciding to join the fire crews is a voluntary decision , but working in prison is in itself not a voluntary decision in California.

S1: KPBS Midday Edition is back after the break. Welcome back to KPBS midday Edition. I’m Jade Hindman. Last week , fire crews fully contained the border two fire that burned thousands of acres in the Otay Mountain Wilderness. It prompted evacuation orders in nearby neighborhoods and shelter in place orders for the nearby jails and prisons. Among the firefighters working to put out those flames were nearly 600 incarcerated people , 428 of which were on the front lines , while the remaining served in support roles , and they do this essential work with little pay. I’m here with Keri Blake. She’s a reporter with the LA times. Kerry , welcome to the show.

S5: Hey , thanks for having me.

S1: Glad to have you here.

S5: They , um , they they live in 35 minimum security camps that are scattered across 25 counties all over the state. And during the recent fires in LA , there were more than a thousand of them who were helping with the palisades and eating fires.

S1:

S5: Although , um , some former incarcerated firefighters that I talked to said that sometimes they also work as what they call active nozzles , you know , actually sort of directly fighting the blazes outside of wildfire season , which is more of what they’re doing. It’s , you know , it’s not typically in the middle of a series of fires like this. They would be doing things that , you know , free world firefighters do. They’re putting out structure fires. They’re responding to overdoses , they’re responding to vehicle crashes. And that , I’m told , is the bigger part of their work.

S1: Um , the wages that incarcerated firefighters get paid have been making headlines because they’re abysmally low compared to an average firefighter salary. So how much do they typically earn. When.

S5: When.

S6: They’re not.

S5: Dealing with an active emergency situation ? They would be getting 5 to $10 a day. But during , you know , when they were out fighting wildfires like they were recently in LA and in San Diego , they’d be getting 27 to $34 a day for a full 24 hour day. And as low as that seems , it’s still a lot more than they make with other jobs in prison. So that is one of many reasons why this is actually a coveted job in prisons.

S1: So I mean , so let me understand this a little more , because California voted against prop six , which would have eliminated involuntary servitude for incarcerated people.

S5: But working in prison is in itself not a voluntary decision in California , in the sense that currently state law requires that all abled body prisoners have to work. And what prop six would have done is it would have made it so that if people chose not to work , they could , for instance , spend that time taking college classes , or they could have more time to take , you know , to engage in other programs. Um , as of now , there’s only actually enough prison jobs for about a third of state prisoners. So as of now , there’s only enough prison jobs for about a third of state prisoners. And recently , the state has said that they’re considering where they’re in the process of trying to make some of the full time jobs into part time jobs , which would give people more time to engage in programming of their choice. But when it comes to firefighting , like the the choice to join those fire crews is voluntary and there’s considerable incentive to do it.

S1: So that working in and of itself is involuntary. But the work that you do , you have some some choice in that matter is that. Am I understanding that correctly ? Yeah.

S5: Some choice. But it’s not as if you can just sort of say , I want , I want to do this job or that job. There are certain things you can opt into.

S1:

S6:

S5: Do have some sort of work requirement. Some states don’t pay at all. I think there’s 4 or 5 states that still don’t pay incarcerated people anything. Um , but interestingly , recently Nevada voters passed a similar proposition to the one that just failed here in California , and they did get rid of involuntary servitude in prisons. But one of the interesting things was the language of their proposition was slightly different. So there’s asked people to vote on slavery. Ours asked people to vote on involuntary servitude. And we don’t really know why California voters declined to get rid of it. And Nevada voters decided they did want to get rid of it.

S1: Yeah.

S5: Yeah. When I was out , uh , reporting on Election Day last year , and I was asking people in line to vote questions about their , you know , how they were going to vote on different things and what brought them out. One of the most common things I heard was that people didn’t understand the propositions , or they were afraid that they were going to vote the wrong way because they didn’t understand the wording of them. Mhm.

S7: Mhm. Well.

S1: Let me get back to the firefighting program here. So the program that these firefighters who are incarcerated are working in is with the California Department of Corrections and Rehabilitation. It’s the California Conservation Camps program started in 1915. What do you know about that program and its roots ? Yeah.

S5: So it has expanded sort of slowly over the years since it started , like you said in 1915 , it peaked around 2005 with just over 4200 firefighters. And , you know , since then , as a result of prison reform , the number of firefighters has decreased and it’s down to a little under 1800 at this point.

S1:

S5: There’s a lot of states in which people who have done time can’t get certain state licenses , and one of the ones that is relevant to people who are trying to work as firefighters is the ability to get a paramedic license. In 2020 , there was a bill passed that made it easier for former prison firefighters to get their records expunged and thus get a paramedic license that way. It’s still a it’s still a difficult process , from what I understand. I know that there are some people that have succeeded in doing that and going on to become firefighters. I don’t really have a sense of how many people that is , but it is at least now a possibility on the table for folks.

S1: You know , some incarcerated people have talked about the complicated ethics at the heart of this work. It is a highly coveted job , like you mentioned , but perilous. And it’s low paying. So what else have you heard from the people you’ve spoken to ? Yeah.

S5: So it’s also statistically quite dangerous. Um , incarcerated firefighters have higher rates of certain kinds of injuries than professional firefighters. So it’s actually it can be more dangerous than some firefighting work is in the free world. And I mean , there’s also , of course , the the complicated ethics of this is a job that is highly desirable in a number of ways. Um , you know , people get better treatment in some ways. They get better food , they get time credits so they can go home earlier. Um , you know , they get better pay than people elsewhere in prison , and they get to do something that I think has concrete , real world benefits , which is something that can be difficult to come by in prison. But that also sort of creates a , a place where people are going to be afraid to report injuries and they have a great incentive to go to great lengths to stay in the program , because it can make such a big difference between when they get to go home and hug their kids again , or whether they’re staying in prison longer. Mhm.

S7: Mhm.

S1: You also reported on another fire , the Hughes fire , which threatened a specific jail complex in that area. Tell me about that and some of the challenges they faced in just trying to evacuate those who were incarcerated. Yeah.

S5: Yeah. The Hughes fire cropped up around , I don’t know , 1030 or 11 one morning and it was about five miles away from the Castaic jail complex when it started. That complex held at that point , around 4700 people in three different facilities. Now , officials responded by moving some of the people in a very exposed barracks style facility into a concrete structure. But there was still a lot of concerns about whether they actually would have been able to evacuate those people if the fire came close enough and the fire ended up coming within a mile of the facility. But the sheriff’s department has been struggling with a shortage of both staff and buses. Like inmate transport buses for several years , so they only had around 20 buses on hand out of a fleet of 80 some. And they managed to , in short order , scrounge up several more buses. They they said that by the end of it , they had 100 buses on hand because they borrowed some from other counties. But I think that still raised questions as to how quickly you could have really gotten 5000 people out into those buses and where you would put them and how you would evacuate them. Um , even though they were in a concrete structure , that there was apparently some confidence that that would withstand a fire. Um , I think there’s still a lot of concerns about , like , would that just turn into an oven ? Would people suffocate ? Um , and fortunately , they really focused the fire crews really focused on keeping the blaze away from the jail , and they dropped a dropped a lot of retardant in that area , and it did not get within half a mile of the facility , but it was close enough that it certainly raised some concerns for , you know , the people inside there , as well as their families and lawyers and , you know , advocates like the ACLU.

S1: Yeah , it could have been a very tragic outcome there.

S5: One is through the Anti Recidivism Coalition , which if you go to their website , they have a donation page. And if you just note that this is for firefighters , uh , they’re planning to use the money to help buy some of the basic supplies that those folks need , as well as to fund some scholarships for former firefighters that were incarcerated , and also to put some money on their commissary. And then there is a more grassroots effort to try to put commissary money in individual firefighters accounts. And that is all tracked through a Google Docs spreadsheet that , um , was shared at um Bitly backslash firefighter gi. You can put money on individual books of firefighters yourself if you check that out.

S1: And we’ll have some of those resources available on our page as well at KPBS. Backslash midday. I’ve been speaking with Kerry Blankenship , a reporter with the L.A. times. Kerry. Thanks so much.

S5: Thanks for having me.

S1: That’s our show for today. I’m your host , Jade Hindman. Thanks for tuning in to Midday Edition. Be sure to have a great day on purpose , everyone.